My good friend Larry, whose blog Simple Thoughts is a good read, entered a response to my post about, mostly, Camp Barnabas in Purdy Mo. In his entry, he makes some comments about some things that I only mentioned in passing due to the fact that I'm appalled at the amount of money spent of War and not Peace.
I didn't go into much detail about my thoughts on the Iraqi war is in that post, but since we are already there, I thought I would lay out some of my reasoning here as well as some other points that Larry brought up....
On the War
1) Yes Saddam was and is a BAD man and I will not argue that removing him from power was nothing but helpful to the Iraqi people.... but
2) Larry claims that Saddam refused to abide with a peace treaty that he signed. Well, yes, he signed a treaty, but with the a group of countries and with the support of the UN, not just the US. If, by violating the treaty he signed with these countries, an invasion or removal of power should have happened, then it should have happened with the full support of all countries involved in the original agreement as well as the United Nations. The US took this fully under our auspices and we have paid a price in dollars and lives far greater than any other country. This was OUR invasion and we had the help of Britain and Australia, both of which are now rethinking the whole thing. Many people and countries looked at this issue and decided against the invasion.... Why were they wrong when Bush and his group were right?
3) Some people still believe that Iraq had something to do with the 9/11 attacks on the World Trade Centers. This even after countless parties have found no connection at all between Saddam's regime and the Taliban. Lots of connections have been found between the terrorists and Saudi Arabia and Syria, but we didn't go invading their countries... Why? Is it because they are self-ruling countries? So was Iraq... just with someone we didn't like. It's more likely they have something we want (what could that be?) and even talking bad about them is going to cause problems. This argument does not hold water.
4) WMDs... Well, it suspicion of having Weapons of Mass Destruction is reason enough to go to war, then when is the invasion of North Korea and Iran going to start??? We can place any number of guesses on whether or not Iraq had WMDs, but no one has found them, lots of people looked before the invasion and none were found. Sabre rattling does not lead to facts, no matter what you try to get the British to believe (see the Downing St. Memo).
On Religion in Government...
People love to quote lines from Thomas Jefferson's letters stating that he wanted religion to be a part of the US government. My issue with this is two fold...
1) If he wanted this so badly, then why didn't he put it in the Constitution? Now, this is usually when someone tries to point out that the Declaration of Independence makes references to "their creator" and one line entry about "God", but here's the problem with that argument. the Constitution is a LEGAL document. It hold sway over every other decision our lawmakers, judges and citizens make. The Declaration of Independence is NOT! It is just as it states.... A Declaration, or statement, of Independence, nothing more and can no more be held up as proof that Mr. Jefferson intended religious intervention than anything else he wrote. And we won't even get into the issue that he didn't write much of the Constitution anyway.....
2) As great a man as Thomas Jefferson was... He also wrote about slavery being a good thing. He owned slaves and traded them freely. If what Mr. Jefferson wrote should be help in such high esteem, then maybe this country should undo the past 30+ years of Civil rights advances. Would anyone like to argue that point? People are allowed to change positions on important matters. Mr. Jefferson had a chance, while both a representative of the people and President of this country, to change the rule of law in this country.... He chose not to. Too bad we can't go back and ask why... Or what his intentions were... We only have what he left behind, some of which is law, some seen as both brilliant writing and tainted ramblings, some left behind by greater thinkers.
3) In the end, I do believe that this country was founded by people that had great religious beliefs. But those people were also coming over here to escape exactly what some are trying to force on citizens today. Either you agree with our "religious message" or you are the enemy. Free thought is in danger from the Pat Robertsons and James Dobsons of the world. Excuse me now while I hide in my hobbit hole from the Assassins now looking for me.
Flame on!
Right now, I thinking... "If I post this, I'm going to get flamed so bad..." You will notice however that I didn't mention once my "beloved" (as Larry put it) Clintons. Nor did I say that there should be no religious influence in our lives. My complaints, and the original reason for the first post, lie with the powers that be. And by that, I mean the people who really make the decisions in this country. Not the average Joe/Jane who just lives his/her life and tries to provide for their family, whatever that may be.
Sorry if this rambled a bit.... Its a lot to put down and get said right.
Talk at you later....Bry.
I didn't go into much detail about my thoughts on the Iraqi war is in that post, but since we are already there, I thought I would lay out some of my reasoning here as well as some other points that Larry brought up....
On the War
1) Yes Saddam was and is a BAD man and I will not argue that removing him from power was nothing but helpful to the Iraqi people.... but
2) Larry claims that Saddam refused to abide with a peace treaty that he signed. Well, yes, he signed a treaty, but with the a group of countries and with the support of the UN, not just the US. If, by violating the treaty he signed with these countries, an invasion or removal of power should have happened, then it should have happened with the full support of all countries involved in the original agreement as well as the United Nations. The US took this fully under our auspices and we have paid a price in dollars and lives far greater than any other country. This was OUR invasion and we had the help of Britain and Australia, both of which are now rethinking the whole thing. Many people and countries looked at this issue and decided against the invasion.... Why were they wrong when Bush and his group were right?
3) Some people still believe that Iraq had something to do with the 9/11 attacks on the World Trade Centers. This even after countless parties have found no connection at all between Saddam's regime and the Taliban. Lots of connections have been found between the terrorists and Saudi Arabia and Syria, but we didn't go invading their countries... Why? Is it because they are self-ruling countries? So was Iraq... just with someone we didn't like. It's more likely they have something we want (what could that be?) and even talking bad about them is going to cause problems. This argument does not hold water.
4) WMDs... Well, it suspicion of having Weapons of Mass Destruction is reason enough to go to war, then when is the invasion of North Korea and Iran going to start??? We can place any number of guesses on whether or not Iraq had WMDs, but no one has found them, lots of people looked before the invasion and none were found. Sabre rattling does not lead to facts, no matter what you try to get the British to believe (see the Downing St. Memo).
On Religion in Government...
People love to quote lines from Thomas Jefferson's letters stating that he wanted religion to be a part of the US government. My issue with this is two fold...
1) If he wanted this so badly, then why didn't he put it in the Constitution? Now, this is usually when someone tries to point out that the Declaration of Independence makes references to "their creator" and one line entry about "God", but here's the problem with that argument. the Constitution is a LEGAL document. It hold sway over every other decision our lawmakers, judges and citizens make. The Declaration of Independence is NOT! It is just as it states.... A Declaration, or statement, of Independence, nothing more and can no more be held up as proof that Mr. Jefferson intended religious intervention than anything else he wrote. And we won't even get into the issue that he didn't write much of the Constitution anyway.....
2) As great a man as Thomas Jefferson was... He also wrote about slavery being a good thing. He owned slaves and traded them freely. If what Mr. Jefferson wrote should be help in such high esteem, then maybe this country should undo the past 30+ years of Civil rights advances. Would anyone like to argue that point? People are allowed to change positions on important matters. Mr. Jefferson had a chance, while both a representative of the people and President of this country, to change the rule of law in this country.... He chose not to. Too bad we can't go back and ask why... Or what his intentions were... We only have what he left behind, some of which is law, some seen as both brilliant writing and tainted ramblings, some left behind by greater thinkers.
3) In the end, I do believe that this country was founded by people that had great religious beliefs. But those people were also coming over here to escape exactly what some are trying to force on citizens today. Either you agree with our "religious message" or you are the enemy. Free thought is in danger from the Pat Robertsons and James Dobsons of the world. Excuse me now while I hide in my hobbit hole from the Assassins now looking for me.
Flame on!
Right now, I thinking... "If I post this, I'm going to get flamed so bad..." You will notice however that I didn't mention once my "beloved" (as Larry put it) Clintons. Nor did I say that there should be no religious influence in our lives. My complaints, and the original reason for the first post, lie with the powers that be. And by that, I mean the people who really make the decisions in this country. Not the average Joe/Jane who just lives his/her life and tries to provide for their family, whatever that may be.
Sorry if this rambled a bit.... Its a lot to put down and get said right.
Talk at you later....Bry.
Comments
thanks for responding to my response. YOu have some good points even though many are misguided (I know that was what you were thinking of mine). I was laughing all the way esp. with the Flame ON. That was great.